Q&A: novelist Meg Wolitzer

Meg Wolitzer’s novels shouldn’t be spoiled. Even though nothing can spoil the fun of reading her books. Her writing has no expiry date that I can find. Timeless kind of prose, brilliant in many ways at once on every page. Still, I almost spoiled this interview by accidentally asking for an answer from Meg Wolitzer that would make her reveal what’s going to be one of the fun pleasures of reading to the end of her latest, The Uncoupling. So I edited that question out. If you’d like to know the ending, look elsewhere, others couldn’t resist. No biggie, like I said, it’s the reading of her flawless organic tell-all prose that’s the pleasure.

Meg Wolitzer lives in Manhattan, where she writes playful novels full of every imaginable kind of voice and flawed, wonderful characters. She observes them and disturbs them, she gives her characters  public and private selves, and lets us see the contrast. She plays with shape and form and duration in her novels, using memory, media, real history, and intimate family details to spin wonderful, page-a-minute stories. The Uncoupling, her new novel, is not her first to consider the mating dance our first step into magic realism. The Ten-Year Lap, her novel from 2008, and before it, The Wife, The Position, and her first, Surrender, Dorothy, all discover real, vividly real scenarios and depictions of love and our relationships that would be absurd and impossible to consider were it not for great literature to invent a way.

How would you describe the way the action unfolds in your latest novel, The Uncoupling?

My novel involves a magic spell (I never thought I would use the words “my novel” and “magic spell,” in the same sentence), that is cast upon a suburban town, causing all the women to turn away from men in bed.  The action, such as it is, unfolds subtly, in that it’s really a kind of inaction–a mass refusal.  I follow the spell as it wafts through the town, and I go in and out of the bedrooms and psyches of the women and teenaged girls in question.

I wonder if in writing this novel you observed certain myths of the American sex life that your story was able to transgress or highlight?

I think there’s a truism in American culture that everyone wants sex all the time, and that to be healthy is to be strongly sexual.  This began with Freud, I guess; if you were sexually repressed back then, you were seen as ill.  But actually, I don’t think that sex is always the imperative in one’s life.  There are vicissitudes, and I wanted to acknowledge that, at least metaphorically.

Sex is some tricky language. There’s even an award for doing it poorly! You don’t get that for writing a family dinner scene. Who are the top writers on the themes of sex you might have looked at?

For a book about sex, there’s very little sex in The Uncoupling, because it’s about that aspect of life being taken away.  But let’s see, in novels without magic spells or sex strikes, I like some of the sex scenes in… Jenette Winterson’s work, and in Jonathan Franzen’s.

Does theatre still have magical properties? — what parts of performance and rehearsal and line interpretation did you enjoy writing about?

I think all great literature–whether it’s meant to be only read, or read and performed, is highly powerful, and can change everything.  That’s part of the premise of my book.  There are lots of “spells” floating around out there in life, including the spell of art, which in some instances has lasted from ancient times all the way up until now.

Is there a play you’ve seen recently that made you wish you could have watched all the rehearsals?

I am going to see “Arcadia” by Stoppard tomorrow; it’s one of my favorites.

[enough Time passes before publishing this interview that I can ask] What did you think of the play, now that you’ve seen it?

I actually found that I preferred reading the play, and I am not sure if it was this particular production, or simply the fact that the words fly around your head in Stoppard, and I as a writer can’t help but want to linger on them. Some of it was extraordinarily moving, of course.   (For me, all you have to say is “Time passes,” and I am basically weeping.)

If you wrote a stageplay, what might it be about?

I actually am planning to write a musical with a musician friend.  We are just starting to think what it will be.  I have a fantasy about the ache of a play like “Our Town,” but with zesty music.

Are you interested in actors?

Sure.  They are often much more beautiful than writers!  Also, the actors I have met seem open to lots of different kinds of writing, and their interpretations of character are sometimes startling and not “fixed.”

This is a writing question and it turned into a long whopper: Your novels are lively relationships, and there are main characters, and through them we meet so many different people, secondary characters, and hear their stories told in so many different styles. The characters’ dialogue, the newspaper clippings. and announcements, letters, interviews, and all laid out in this fine, smooth order —  what is your technique for developing these numerous voices, all appearing in and out of narrative and scenes and chapters, what effort to find that pace you like and the fluidity and continuity?

A while ago I had an insight (well, I think it was an insight) that the whole concept of “backstory,” or “flashback” was fallacious.  Most of our lives are back-story, aren’t they?  I am sitting here typing, but I am also thinking about something that happened to me this morning, and something that happened to me in my childhood.  It goes back as much as it goes forward, and I think ordering parts of a novel for “momentum” can be a mistake, and goes against the grain of fiction.  The ordering that I do more closely resembles free-associations.  Only later, during, say, a second draft, will I go in and heighten momentum on purpose.

At what point in the writing process do your characters get named?

They get named very, very early; then their names sometimes get changed very late.  But one of the pleasures for me (as I am sure is true for all writers) is the naming.  We know when a name is right, though sometimes we can’t explain why.  I like the way the unconscious works during the picking of names, leading the writer toward certain qualities in a character that a name either amplifies, or desperately tries to hide.

Do you toy over how major events play out or basically write them as they come to you, revise, and move on?

I barrel through as they come to me.  Later, looking them over, I am often appalled, and so I revise.

Are you able to talk a bit more about how you like to develop and reveal aspects of your characters?

I never really picture the characters, but instead I just let them kind of appear as the ideas in a story deepen.  Once the ideas solidify, I try to enrich the characters; I never want them to just “be” there like people idly sitting in a park.  I want them to have some kind of dynamic role, even if I don’t initially know what it is.

What’s a story got to do under your typing fingers to make you feel awake to its potential?

The writing has to excite me, thrill me, make me want to rip through it.  I love that crazy, sick, overstimulated feeling you get when you’re writing well.

Do you think a person can see themselves as well as we can see the actions of characters in novels?

No, I think we are all blind to ourselves for most of our lives.

Are people in it together or inherently more selfish?

In life?  We are frightened of dying and need solace all the time.  Selfish, definitely, but human, which makes it all understandable.

Do you write short stories?

Not usually.  I tend to like the big bag of a novel.

What’s an important film for you?

“The Lady Vanishes,” by Alfred Hitchcock.  Funny, frightening, moving, beautiful, and old now, very old.

Do you go see any foreign films in the movie theatres?

Yes, once in a while, although more and more my movie-watching takes place at home.

Who is a really great auteur type filmmaker you can’t get enough of?


What’s some of your favorite short stories?

Alice Munro’s “Child’s Play.”  Joyce Carol Oates’s “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been.” James Joyce’s “Clay.”  “Delmore Schwartz’s “In Dreams Begin Responsibilities.”

Who writes the wildest short stories?
Mary Robison is pretty wild.  James Joyce is too.

Do you hang out at many of the interesting-sounding literary or other NYC events that the rest of the world’s agape over when they read NYer etc, must it all balance with hunkering down over the keys, writing?
Most of my friends are writers, so I guess when we get together it’s a writers’ thing, in a way.  We do go to readings and lectures in NYC, certainly.  As far as whether the world would be agape… Does the world want to sit around and eat cheese with writers and talk about books?  Maybe in, oh, 1982 it did, but I don’t think it does to that degree anymore.   All the writers I know are nervous about the future of books and writing, but everyone balances the cheese-eating and even reading-going with serious productivity.  We don’t know what will happen, but we just keep doing what we know how to do.  What else is there?

What’s a remarkable novel you’ve read recently?
Here’s a great one:  Old Filth, by Jane Gardam.  It’s masterful!  (See, I even used an exclamation point.  I felt the need to exclaim over this one…)

Zomby ‘▽’

Zomby’s been releasing new tracks this month. All are good. Drums galore. Reminds me of Mujava in his love for them. Dedicated to all those turtles out there who’ve lost their shells.

Odd Future, Tyler the Creator

great video, crazy lyrics, Tyler the Creator and his friends from Odd Future Wolf Gang and MellowHype are defining rap for 2011

Ben Marcus Q&A

Ben Marcus is an American author living in New York City, with two books, The Age of Wire & String and Notable American Women, as well as two minibooks, The Father Costume (a collaboration with artist Matthew Ritchie),  and recently, The Moors. He will publish a new novel, The Flame Alphabet, next year with Knopf. His short fiction and editorial has appeared in Conjunctions, The Believer, McSweeney’s, Tin House, &c. and besides an important selection for Conjunctions in a folio titled Sticks & Stones, Marcus wrote an influential essay in 2005 for Harper’s Magazine titled,

Why experimental fiction threatens to destroy publishing, Jonathan Franzen, and life as we know it:

A correction

in which Marcus heartily chides those who might agree with his cheeky title and “defends experimental fiction against critics, Jonathan Franzen in particular, who disparage it.” It seems American culture is very concerned with the “value” of fiction. I’ve always agreed with Marcus that experimental fiction has no more or less value than any other kind. Social realism has its value stitched right into its face like a baseball. Experimental fiction has something more like the value of a campfire.

This email was conducted by e-mail.

Q The reason I felt prompted to ask you some questions was the publication of your new work, The Moors. I was itching to read some new fiction from you. It always feels like it’s been a while, because the work you publish between book projects is so compact. How did this mini-book come about?

It was first published in Tin House, and then Madras Press asked if they could issue it as a small book, with proceeds, several million dollars, no doubt, going to charity. I chose the library in Brooklin, Maine, where I live in the summer. An amazing library run by terrific people.

Q What other recent writing have you published that I might have missed?

Not so much. I’ve spent the last two years working on a book, so I didn’t publish much other than reviews.

Q The Moors is about a fraught interaction between employees in a section of an office so creepy and ‘misconceived architecturally’ that all it’s good for is stashing a coffee cart. What attracted you examine the reveries compacted in this awkward moment?

I wanted to write as close into a character as I could. It started that way. A man crippled by the smallest social encounter. Not just crippled, destroyed. I wanted to listen in on his thoughts and find the story’s conflict inside his head.

Q Some people thrive in office environments while others suffer, and architecture and sociability have so much to play in this success. Do you hope the kind of strenuous inner life your main character has offers him an escape from office life or is his language and fretting a symptom of the deep office doldrums?

I don’t see much of an escape for him. His inner life is just so assaultive and not nurturing at all. And then there’s his situation at home, which you only learn of at the end.

Q Which great architect created the cruelest offices spaces, in your estimation?

Who designed the Roman Coliseum? That guy.

Q What was the best office you ever worked in?

I worked in an office where the bathroom was out in a shared hallway, for which you needed a key from our receptionist. That was back when I ate a lot of soup, chased with bottled water, and I had to pee every twenty minutes, which meant I had to keep going back to the receptionist’s desk to get a key, undergoing her highly curious stare. And then everyone in the office would see me leaving, and returning. Fairly high scrutiny. I didn’t last very long there.

Q Who are the writers you admire for the structure of their internal narratives?

Donald Antrim, Nicholson Baker, Lydia Davis.

Q You wrote an important essay for Harper’s on the current conditions of the literary enterprise in which you defend an approach to fiction that is other than a giant social contract with America. Since the essay was published, can you give an update on what you’ve seen lately in publishing?

I packed my radar away for a little while after writing that essay.

Q I wonder if you care to say anything about Franzen’s novel Freedom I’d be very interested to know if you felt the need to read it, and a thumbnail of what its publication might contribute to your thoughts?

I haven’t read it but I hope to, soon.

Q What’s your favorite decade in literary history?

This one, so far.

Q If I were to ask you to suggest some living writers for an anthology, like you’ve done in the past for Conjunctions and Anchor, what are some stories or authors you would want to include that you’ve never before had a chance to select?

There’s a pretty long list, and I’m sure I’ll forget a lot of great people. Jane Unrue, Blake Butler, Doug Elsass, Deb Olin Unferth, Matt Derby, Gabe Hudson, Tom McCarthy, Jennifer Egan, Mark Doten, Chris Adrian, Lynne Tillman. It’s impossible to name everyone. That book came about from eighteen months of concentrated reading. When I couldn’t forget something it went into a pile. I asked everyone I knew what I should read, and I bought hundreds of books and sat and read through all of them. So, to be honest, I’d want to do that again, and listing names here is too much of a short cut. I love the writers above, and there are so many more that I also love, but in the end I’d want to lock myself away with a new roomful of work and see what would happen.

Q The claim made by a critic recently that American fiction is too insular…does this argument hold any water with you?

American Fiction isn’t an organized sports team with a single, driving purpose. There’s no single it about it. If I say that Canadian bread is too dry, I’m overlooking some terrific bakeries in Montreal, and elsewhere. Calling American fiction too insular is not, by the way, an ‘argument’. It’s a display of monstrous stupidity. Plus, just to be thorough here, let’s remind ourselves of some great insular fiction by writers such as Samuel Beckett, Thomas Bernhard, Jane Bowles, etc.

Q: On the back cover it says you’ll publish a new novel The Flame Alphabet with Knopf in 2012…what can you reveal about it?

It’s a book about language toxicity and what happens when children are the only people who can speak without getting sick. This gives them tremendous power, which they promptly abuse. It’s also a book about a family falling apart. And, among several other things, it’s about a little-known strain of Jewishness that is rigorously private, unadvertised, and conducted primarily alone in the forest.

Q How much time or silence or language or image did you need to write The Flame Alphabet? Are you still writing it?

It’s done. I wrote it in about eighteen months, after thinking about it, and faltering at it, for four years. For the first time since I had kids I went on a few residencies (I was on leave from teaching), and those were, sadly, crucial for concentrated writing time. Very great to work day and night without having to read Thomas the Train books, and yet at the same time very sad not to get to read Thomas the Train books each and every day to little, warm people who don’t hate me.

Q Is the cover going to be something special?

Haven’t seen it yet. Any day now.

Q Wire & String was kind of a father-inspired book. And Notable American Women was rather more mother-inspired. The Flame Alphabet is inspired by your other guardian, language?

This I don’t know. I don’t really think of my books as inspired by specific people or entities.

Q: Did you give yourself a specific constraint in writing The Flame Alphabet?

It needed not to deeply, horribly suck. That was a big constraint. Actually, for some reason, after finishing my last book, I decided I couldn’t write again about birds or cloth or wind, but somehow they got into this book too.

Q Do you have a process for revising your work? How do you know something needs fixing?

For me there’s always something that needs fixing. Sometimes I have to reckon with what I can’t fix, but, in general, everything can always be better, a lot better. The trick is not to go completely mad in the realization of this. But my process is as sexy as editing gets: I read what I’ve done and note my misgivings, which blacken the page. I line-edit, reading for sense and sound, and I try to cut what’s weak. Sometimes, if a whole scene is offensive, I re-write it from scratch. This is almost always a good idea, working from roughly the same content but attacking it with some different stylistic modulation. Once my own misgivings have been aggressively handled and I suffer the momentary delusion that I’m finished, I turn the work over to another reader, who usually waits a few weeks before somberly telling me that, as I suspected, there’s something treacherously rotten and flawed at the core of my project. I mourn and grieve and protest this, but days later I feel as happy as I’ve ever felt, and then get back to work. Pretty sexy stuff.


Kendrick Lamar

I really dig this fresh MC from Compton Kendrick Lamar and also his and School Boy Q are among the best rap aliases since Nikky 2 States. Lamar seems to be working with Dr Dre, which might explain why this sounds so awesome.

Babe Rainbow Q&A

Babe Rainbow is the name of Vancouver-based Cameron Reed’s experiments in electronic music. I’m a big fan of his sound, the deranged moods, funky beats, chilly melodies, and intelligent structures. This is fresh music. Babe Rainbow’s got a lot of buzz going, so I’m pleased to have this interview. He’s put out a lot of tracks online, including some great screwed&chopped remixes of rap classics, and a collection of brilliant ambient work. There’s also the Shaved E.P. on Warp Records, a really beautiful selection of tunes from spooksville, with an apt cover by local conceptualist James Nizam. This interview was conducted via e-mail.

Q: The name Babe Rainbow, is it a reference to your circle of friends?
No, I was taking an art class in school saw a painting by pop artist Peter Blake entitled ‘Babe Rainbow’. I remember thinking it would be a ridiculous band name, kinda mocking the whole ‘put two unconnected words together as a band name’ idea (Twin Shadow, Neon Indian, Crystal Castles, etc). So when I start BR I needed a name to make a MySpace page and just used that name. Now I’m stuck with it. I don’t mind it though.

Q: Is there a piece of gear or was it a piece of music that inspired you to try making music in this style?
I’ve always made these kinds of moody soundscapes. Even when I was younger recording acoustic guitar on a 4-track I was making these loops of layers and layers of guitar. They all ended up pretty dark or moody. When I started making this music I just did was cam natural.

Q: When you begin a fresh tune, do you start with a sample or a drum loop, or where does a song start?
More often than not it’s a tone. I just start fucking with sounds and play around. Sometimes I’ll start with drums. I’m just starting to get more into sampling now.

Q: Is anyone else in your family gifted with music?
No one else in my family really plays music. They enjoy it but in a sort of passive way. I’m the only person in my immediate family that is really immersed in it.

Q: I can’t immediately solve your song titles, what’s the naming process for Shaved and its various pieces?
There’s no real method to it. Often just the first thing that comes to mind.

Q: Do you include other musicians in BR creative process?
I’m trying to do a lot more collaborating. But no, it’s really just been me for the most part.

Q: Local weather, tree species, ocean tides, island system, seclusion, Satanism, oddities, what do you most identify with that is part of this place, our home, Vancouver, BC?
Isolation/seclusion. It’s weird,
I can’t imagine what it must be like for other cultures that immigrate here. It would make sense why many of them maintain and stick so closely to the culture from where they move from.

Q: What is your experience with audiences here in town? Do they dig BR?
Yeah, everyone is usually very supportive. Some have said very nice things. It’s not dance-y music so if people just stand and watch without leaving it’s a success.

Q: Are you involved in other music projects outside Babe Rainbow?
No, not really. I’d like to play guitar in a band again.

Q: Have you reached out to other artists to collaborate with on Babe Rainbow tracks?
Yes, I’ll be working with more MCs in 2011. I’m very excited about it.

Q: How about the importance of Dj Screw for electronic music these days?
I don’t really know how that became so massively injected into electronic, it’s interesting. I pull a lot of inspiration from hip hop so it made sense to me. I assume it’s the same for most of these other artists utilizing his techniques.

Q: You know a lot about Vancouver after dark via Music Waste and being sociable and so on, I wanted your recommendations for each night of the week’s best dark locations?
Biltmore, Goody, Astoria, Six Acres, China Cloud, Fortune, the Narrow. I end up at those places most often.

Q: What are some of the first places you played live in the city as Babe Rainbow?
Funky Winkerbeans and Astoria were my first live shows,
Q: Even the loud noise music in town has been pretty crunk in the past few years — I think the Mutators were the crunkest. Looking back at a band like The Mutators, what do you remember the most?
I feel really lucky to have been a part/been friends with so many people in that noise punk community. The Emergency Room and all of the music that came out of there inspired me beyond words.

So much raw, youthful energy. DIY on a hundred thousand trillion.

Q: Music here in Vancouver, often great. You put together a super mix of local stuff for CBC Radio 3. What was the first Vancouver group you ever heard? What’s the latest you’re excited about?
Probably bands like Red Light Sting, the Doers, and Black Rice were the first I remember seeing that really impacted me. Around 2002 or so.

There are tons of bands I like now. Basketball, No Gold, White Lung, Heavy Chains, Defektora, Bison, Peace, and so on forever. Too many to name.

Q: I wonder if the 21st century’s pace of rap mixtapes and rap beat production has put more pressure on dub styles like yours to drop a lot of tracks frequently, in order to not look like a slouch on the blogs, etc? I know the rap scene as a daily conversation, and electronic singles are starting to appear almost as regularly…?
Yeah, in some ways maybe the quality control has gone down but who care. Music is so temporal most of the time anyways. And in my case, I’m just doing it for fun, so if I like it even though maybe it’s not the best or polished, why not share it. No harm.

Q: does a contract – rider for a live gig really depend on how popular your music is with drug dealers?

Q: 2010’s critical rappers?
Curren$y had a huge year. Big fan. Freddie Gibbs. Odd Future. Dad Racist.

Q: What are your thoughts on Aphex Twin?
He is a legend that has inspired an entire generation of musicians. He needs to release more music.

Q: You’re the first Vancouverite signed to Warp records. Do they have a west coast A&R? how did you meet the label, how did that all come about?
No, I’ve been in contact with their A&R/creative director out of London. He’s great. He got in touch with me to do an EP after some of my songs started to do the rounds online.

Q: Warp has a special history in modern electronic music. When they signed you, did they tell you to ignore all that?
Ha! No, they did not, however, I do try to ignore it. Only because a lot of negative reviews of BR stuff is coming from old school IDM heads who just want Warp to relive their 90s output forever.

Q: what kind of relationship do you have with Warp, is it encouraging, tampering, or hands-off? What does an artist like BR want from a label relationship?
I’m always in contact, sending them songs, demos, or just shit I’m into. It’s a great relationship. It’s very encouraging. They are pretty ideal as far as my situation goes. If they were requiring me to go on huge tours to ‘move units’ it would be different.

Q: Is one question Warp asks you when you sign is if you plan on doing BR for the long haul and want to be making music as BR for ten-twenty years? Is commitment a factor in your decision to make music solo with Warp?
No, we’ve never said anything like that. If they wanted to stop working with me they probably just would.

Q: Your label has a pretty significant history of doing videos, and you’ve done a suite of vids for your E.P. I’m wondering if part of the fun is that Warp encourages you to make visuals for your tunes?
It’s mostly just me doing it without consulting them. Since it’s only an EP they don’t really have a budget for it so I’ve just made my own, relying on the good will of talented friends, or funded them myself.

Q: What’s your next project with visuals?
I’m working with two friends who both did their Masters at Emily Carr. I’m really excited. They are both insanely talented.

Q: Ok so what is your next project for Warp?
We’re talking about a couple more EPs. Looking to put out two EPs around April.

Q: Did Music Waste start with zero budget?
Music waste still has zero budget

G-Side 1.1.’11 – very Cohesive

G-Side, Block Beattaz, and Slow Motion Soundz, my best friends in the rap world, straight out of Hunstville, Alabama, just released another classic record on the first day of 2011. I’m really amazed by what they’ve done here. I feel like I’m listening to Low End Theory for the first time, with my jaw on the floor. A thinking, feeling, lyrical revolution in sound. I’m excited as hell for them. It’s a beautiful record. Amazing production by Block Beattaz, and lyrics that are epic from ST 2 Lettaz and Yung Clova, plus lots of Alabama rapper guest appearances. I’ve been listening to Alabama rap since the PRGz put out ‘Wood Grain,’ and score ”Lacs and ‘Prices’ by PRGz and T.I. as the greatest rap song ever written. G-Side are kind of like superheroes of this scene. Huntsville is really taking the hip hop sound to a whole new place, very independent, and very fuckin cool — fans of raps,  preview G-Side’s new album and buy it here.

Ehman & Zumpano collaboration

SP Ehman used to live in a fine old house on Pender Street in the Strathcona neighbourhood of Vancouver, where he and some other artists rented rooms. The kitchen was the place where they liked to do most of their artwork. Eventually Ehman moved out and others moved in. Then a treeplanter bought the house and had to evict everybody. When the new tenants moved out they had a massive housewrecker party, documented in this video.

The video is an animated tribute to the kitchen that once was a great art studio. The music is by Vancouver’s master of pathos, piano magician Jason Zumpano, and it was all made for the show Cyrillic Typewriter commissioned by ViVo, an artist-run centre here in town dedicated to audio-visual experimentation of all stripe.

4 Minutes of Fire

Some epicly good Baltimore dancing in the basketball courts.

Probably One of the Weirdest Videos I’ve Seen In A While

bowhunting flying carp

IBI- Bandz

My favorite place I’ve never been to is Hunstville, Alabama, home to the most inspirational rap scene in America: Slow Motion Soundz, G-Side, Untamed, Hood Headlinaz, Paper Route Gangstas, Block Beataz, Big P.O.P.E., Mali Boi, Dawgy Baggs, Yelawolf, Nikky 2 States, Mata, Jhi Ali, Money Addict, Jackie Chain, The Last Mr. Bigg, King South…I’m forgetting to mention the names of too many son god MCs, it’s a good scene. If someone sends me there to write about this rap scene, I’ll go. For now, I just listen to the music.

and recently DB49 and this one, IBI  — is it produced by Block Beataz? Must be.

On Tony Romano in The Walrus

Click this sentence or the picture to link to the introductory essay I wrote for a photoconceptual piece by the artist Tony Romano in the latest issue of The Walrus.

Memory Festival

My Nollywood Choice for Perfect Hallowe’en Movie

I’m going as this song for Halloween

Calamalka All The Way Up

I’ve been listening this Calamalka tune a lot lately. My fave beat builder in Vancouver, very deep.

All The Way Up by Calamalka

Q&A with Sheila Heti

I interviewed you for my website when The Middle Stories was published, and you said many astounding things, and offered many fascinating, provocative ideas. Your story collection was quite the same — alarming, prescient, familiar, scary, and full of wit. Now, your third book is out, your second novel, and I have a new look for my website. I upgraded just in time to interview you again. In that period of eight years though, you have developed and designed many personal websites — before I ask you about your new book, will you talk a little about your experience with the web, what it’s meant to you as an artist, and how you approach the medium, creatively?


You have so much up there now! Before it was just a photograph of your bookshelf with a few links!

Margaux and I always talk about how it’s nice to have a website because you can change it when your mood changes, to suit what you now know or think is important, while you can’t change a book or painting once it’s out there. So it’s art that can evolve with you. One day the website feels great and like a real representation of what you’re interested in, and a week later it feels out-of-date and worthless. It’s neat to be sensitive to those changes. A person’s website can really be a living artwork, a changing artwork, with no record of what it was.

I’ll only ask one more internet question, to segue to conversation about your book. Your new novel How Should A Person Be? discusses ideas surrounding idolatry, art, desire, fame, celebrity, and influence. Social networking has given audiences a feeling of unfiltered access to the people who fascinate them, in a medium that feels more intimate, but is still very much an entertainment valve. But there’s the opportunity to actually communicate, which is so strange. Have you been in contact with any celebrities online?


I follow Steve Martin on Twitter. To me, he feels like the most celebrity of all the celebrities that exist today. He’s not so great on Twitter, but no one is. It’s like we’re at the beginning of a new expressive medium and no one knows quite what to do with it, so it’s always this weird artificial mixture of self-promotion and attempts and humour and forwading interesting things – I think to counter the self-promotion – and failed attempts at communication, and shoddy, transparent networking, and name-dropping. It’s like we’re all babies.

Perhaps this decade was the first in which becoming celebrity outweighed our culture’s fascination with celebrities. Has celebrity been democratized?


Maybe. Someone misquoted the Andy Warhol quote to me the other day, not realising she was doing it. She said, “It’s like Andy Warhol said, ‘In the future we’ll all be famous for fifteen seconds.’” I was like, Fifteen MINUTES! But fifteen minutes seems impossibly long now.

Do you make a distinction between fame and celebrity? There are people now, like Paris Hilton, who are celebrities first, and then do various things with that celebrity. Fame seems to come from having done something in particular?


I’ve never thought about it before. To me those words have always been interchangeable. I don’t think there’s a single person in the world who deserves the level of fame they have today. Who deserves to have their name passed down through the ages? That would be great if we all, everyone today, agreed to it – shook hands over that: None of our names will outlast our bodies. Agreed. What freedom! It would be a much more friendly world. We should be the first generation to say, Forget it. We should all, collectively, opt out of posterity.

Were you seeking, and what did you find then, in the eroticism or neuroticism of becoming celebrity — not the obsession with celebrity, but the act of trying to make oneself a celebrity?


I discovered – and I think Margaux discovered, too – just from me taping her and writing down what she said — that it must be impossibly hard to be a famous person unless you’re okay with misrepresentation. You’d have to understand that who you are and who your persona is – that thing that celebrity attaches to – are radically different. If not, celebrity would become a highly painful state, because then you’d always be trying to attend to your image, which is idolatry.

I’m trying to think of a male equivalent to the pure celebrity of Paris Hilton. I wonder if that kind of pure erotic celebrity is only granted to young men if they die prematurely.


Rock stars, too, though – that’s pure erotic celebrity, right? Jack White and so on?

Who else in fameworld fascinates you?


Just Steve Martin.

In writing this book, you often thought to describe it as something like making a Reality novel — as a response to Reality TV. But your new novel is also wonderfully indebted to Henry Miller and the many autobiographical novelists of that first wave of the sexual revolution, sensual humiliationists who made their obscurity legendary — all of which is now mainstream enough to be TV. Can you tell me a bit about your thoughts on the historical parallels between novelists and Reality TV stars?


I love Henry Miller. I’m so glad you brought him up! It’s wonderful to think about him in relation to the cast of The Hills. I think it’s true that sometimes an artist has to use themselves in their work – like Cindy Sherman did, or Agnes Varda in Les Plages d’Agnes – in order to get people to pay attention. All humans are interested in their limits and capacities, and I think these days we all sort of feel like we can’t learn about our limits and capacities from fiction, because fictional characters can do anything. But when you’re looking at journalism or memoir or autobiographical novels – well, that’s about real people, right? So the limits and capacities of those real people surely tells us something about our own limits and capacities.

Both Henry Miller and Heidi Montag are pretty playful about persona – like that totally wasn’t Henry Miller, and I’m sure that totally isn’t Heidi Montag; obviously they’ve both used life as an artistic medium – and their selves as characters in it.

I think it’s like Cubism, but instead of collapsing the foreground and background, you collapse life and art.

Your openness about sexuality in the book is a little unlike Reality TV — it’s more common for novels to have the kind of candour you employ, TV still has to be shy. But I like this idea you begin with that along with the painting of the nude, the readymade urinal, the real sex act is now art, too. Is this the sexual revolution documented in, and accentuated by, Reality TV?


I think the sexual revolution is documented in, and accentuated by internet porn, not Reality TV. I don’t think reality TV has anything to do say about sex, but it has a lot to say about relationships and dating. These shows where women compete for the love of one man – or one woman picks from a bunch of men – the idea that there are “a bunch of people out there” and you pick the one that’s best – I think that courtship structure is particular to our culture. That’s not how people always conceptualised the search for a mate.

What I learned with Margaux is that there’s something to be said for the inevitable happiness and the inevitable misery and the inevitable compatibility and the inevitable incompatibility of whoever you might be with. Love is not about finding the best person, but has more to do with recognizing the valuable singularity of every person you deal with – and it’s always difficult, and the value is in the difficulty.

I think Reality TV says the value is in the search, and that one’s intelligence is activated in their search is for the “best” or “perfect” one. But the more I learn about life, the more disgusting and destructive that idea becomes.

Your Reality, though, is not TV but language — in breaking up the narrative into memories, transcripts, e-mails, incantations, you also maintain a clear structure — the language guides the reader through your themes quite clearly. I guess I’m thinking right now of the aspects to do with faith, God, Moses, and prayer. Before writing this book, had you ever prayed? There is a prayer in an e-mail Sheila Heti writes to her self, but as Moses might write it. Has this book brought you to a different place in terms of that big question, that first step beyond?


I was not someone who ever prayed, really, and am still not, but I think it’s one of the most beautiful human acts possible. It doesn’t matter whether there’s a God who hears; just the idea of a human humbling themselves is very profound – I don’t mean the kind of prayer where you ask for something, but the kind of prayer that is about thanks and awe of what surrounds us.

In your novel, there’s a little mention of doing the I Ching and some other experiments with random actions — did this process of letting chance decide one’s actions help you at all in writing the book?


Yeah. A whole section of the book was written with a contrivance of various cards with numbers on them and a dice and lists of words and a map – I was like a D&D geek. It worked really well for two weeks, then it stopped working. But it was very useful for generating scenes that I couldn’t have come up with otherwise. Basically, it was an elaborate way of combining real things from life in a way that they could be made into fiction, because it’s hard to fictionalise what you’ve experienced and is real. So one list was a list of “actions of the gods” and the other was “contingent variables” and the other was “human gestures” and there was one more list, and these lists came from distilling 600 scenes I wrote, on the advice of Robert McKee, who said that no good writer writes one scene; they write 600. So I wrote 600 scenes – each a paragraph long, and distilled each scene’s essence and made them into these lists… and then the die and the cards led me to combine words from these lists in a random fashion, and from those four words – which had depth because they came from those scenes – I wrote a bunch of new, imagined scenes.

One book I’m reminded of, have you ever read Andre Breton’s novel Nadja?


No. I used to really like Breton – when I was 18 – and then I got a bit older and he reminded me too much of all the pompous men I was meeting who believed they were starting literary movements!

What’s Nadja all about?


Nadja reminded me of the sections in your book with Israel – although Nadja’s a lot less graphic in its obsession with the mate.

What seemed like a crucial book to you while writing How Should A Person Be?


There were a few: A to Z by Andy Warhol. Art and Artists by Otto Rank. Art as Experience by John Dewey. The Picture of Dorian Grey by Oscar Wilde. The Sheltering Sky by Paul Bowles. Those were the books I thought about the most. And a bunch of self-help books, but not one in particular. And the Bible, of course.

What seems like a crucial book for you today? Yesterday?


Yesterday I liked The Normal Personality by Stephen Reiss, which argues that personality is an assemblage of values – and he gives, I think, 16 possible values. And any combination of those values is “normal,” like one can really value and be driven by success and romanticism and family, and that’s normal, but also normal is to be driven by athleticism and status. He also makes the point that good marriages occur when people with similar values marry. It’s not rocket-science, but it’s the kind of science I love, which is when people try to make science from the human sprit.

Today I want to read “The Female Eunuch” by Germaine Greer.

Part of your inspiration for the book was to search for a way to be more at-ease, less neurotic about book-writing, to emulate Margaux Williamson, a close friend of yours and a happy painter. Or did Margaux end up becoming more neurotic?


She became a public writer, with her amazing movie review blog, Movie Is My Favourite Word. And she does that neurotic writer thing of worrying over sentences now, which is really the essence of neuroticism: a sentence in your head that is worried about a sentence. So I’m happy to say I made things worse for her, while she made things better for me. I have much less patience with my desire to make things beautiful all the time. I’m pretty sure it was bad for me and resulted in my work and life being rather lacking in oxygen.

Are you pleased to have had the chance to see and document the Miami Art Fair in its heyday? Would you think going back might reignite some of the same ideas you had about the strange democratization of the pursuit of fame? It’s still happening but so much has changed, it’s even funnier now.


Wow, what’s it like now? I feel really amazed to think that we were there at its peak – its total, decadent, insane peak. I really felt sorry for the art there, but not for the artists.

It’s so rare one is at the right place at the right time, but that was definitely the right place at the right time for us. One has to give thanks for those moments in one’s life. When were you last at the right place at the right time, Lee?


I really can’t recall ever being in the right place at the right time.

Did you find a narrative to the ascent to Famous, is it a state of ease or anxiety? fixed or fluxed? is it a vice?


I think it’s a vice, yes – vanity, idolatry, avarice. You make yourself into an icon to get there. You can’t actually be what a human is – this creature whose only nobility, only divinity – is that it changes and learns and grows. Instead, you have to be this fixed thing, like a car, so that other humans can understand you and worship you. Wanting to be famous is wanting to be worshipped. I think that creates a tremendous amount of anxiety when it works, because being worshipped is a sickness for both the worshipper and the worshipped – it’s a perversion of the human relation.

I think many people in this culture feel a particular kind of anxiety but don’t know where it comes from, and I think a lot of that contemporary anxiety comes from this unconscious desire to model ourselves – our beings – after things like perfume bottles.

Do the tabloids matter?


Yes. I can always ruin a good day by looking in a supermarket tabloid. The problem is they are so certain about who is important. But who is important is your mother, your father, your brother, your wife, your best friend, your grocer… The tabloids fuck that up.

Are you fond of the kind of writing that appears in magazines, and what do you find is the best way to prevent writing in that fashion?


That’s a neat question. I never thought about “the kind of writing that appears in magazines” before, but you’re right. There’s something about it that’s different from writing that appears elsewhere. I once worked as a magazine editor and the main question you had to answer at editorial meetings – if you wanted the magazine to cover something – was: “Why is this important NOW?” In fact, nothing is any more important now than anything else, so I think there is a kind of desperation in magazine articles to prove to the editor and some imaginary reader who supposedly cares about NOW that this is important NOW!

I believe that’s why Lawrence Weschler quit writing for The New Yorker – because it had once been a place (like The Believer or Geist magazine are today) – that didn’t care about NOW. It just cared about good writing and good stories. Then that changed. The stories he wanted to write about were things that seemed important for all time, and that’s not what magazines are selling: they’re selling urgency, the feeling that if you don’t buy the magazine you’ll be out-of-step all month.

Did you go through many revisions? Are there parts of How Should A Person Be? that didn’t suit the final manuscript that your readers may see published later in lit journal or magazine?


Nothing but revisions. There are chapters that could have been in it, but aren’t, and chapters that are, that easily might not have been if I had worked on it six months more or less. I thought for a day about putting some of the sentences that I liked but that didn’t end up in the book on Twitter, but for one thing there weren’t enough characters on Twitter, and for another, it ultimately seemed stupid.

Is part of the project still ongoing?



What do you like to see in a finished sentence (you write some perfectly epic lines of prose)?


It has to sound like it does in my head. I’m still disappointed with some sentences I edited in The Middle Stories to please my editor’s sense of how a certain sentence should be. Every time I read those sentences, I feel a pain. It’s like music, like a wrong note. I just think it needs to have its own music, which is probably the music of my metabolism, just as your sentences are the music of your metabolism. Or maybe it’s like a gait. Reading my writing feels to me like walking down the street, and when I read a sentence that I’ve compromised on, it’s like I stumble. I assume the reader stumbles too, but I might be wrong.

What do you prefer to see from contemporary fiction (in this case I mean another person’s writing)?


Just something really alive. The best genre of fiction today is probably amateur porn – the written kind – found on bulletin boards on the web; really out-there stuff like incest porn and other taboo stuff like having sex with animals. It’s not that these works have great literary qualities, but they have something better – they’re vibrant and vital – because the author HAD to write it. Much contemporary fiction lacks a connection to real life; it’s like someone standing up and singing in a warbly voice beside a piano; it’s some recital in a 19th-century drawing room, and you have to smile and nod while they display their talent. But that amateur porn stuff – they’re real writers, to me.

I don’t know if you can answer for yourself if it feels different now that the book is published and the overlap with your life and the text is no longer a concern, but I know this novel has been an important part of the lives of your friends, can you talk a little about the feeling of having these overlapping projects completed?


This is the happiest time of my life.
Thank you, Sheila!


Thanks, Lee!

Taddle Creek magazine profile

The profile that National Post books editor Mark Medley wrote of my writing for the summer issue of Taddle Creek magazine is now available online.

Reading The Nerve at Word on the Street

On Sunday September 26, I’ll be reading a short romantic story called The Nerve that I wrote for The Walrus magazine at Word on the Street, 4pm in the Authors Tent, at the downtown public library.

Known as Mr Diamond Eye

For the upcoming inaugural issue of Eighteen Bridges I wrote about the Alabama regionally popular rapper King South. Last Mr Bigg, another regionally-huge rapper from Mobile, Alabama, has a DIAMOND IN HIS EYE. His eye has a diamond. That is crazy OG vision. My favorite of the United States for rap music is very next level on every front, even the pupils bling. I’m fascinated by the rap music coming out of Alabama, especially from these producers who call themselves the Block Beataz. I don’t know if Mr Bigg is affiliated or just independently amazing. But his single ‘Satisfied’ is nice and happy, crack-for-crack funny  lyrically, and definitely purple on the groove. Very Alabama. Below is a screwed & chopped slowed-down version with good strange visuals of MR DIAMOND in his EYEBALL. Come rap in Vancouver, definitely.